019: The Disconnection from Nature, Food, and Ourselves, with Jenny Powers, PhD
Speaker 2
[00.00.00]
Welcome back to Real Food Mental Health with Cody Cox. Today's guest is Jenny Powers. She is a
mom, a writer, a scientist, and an athlete from Colorado. She has a B.S. in chemical engineering
from the University of Colorado Boulder, where she also played intercollegiate basketball in the 90s,
and she has a PhD in immunology and microbiology from the University of Colorado Denver. After
her postdoc at National Jewish Health, Jennie left academia to raise her kids and to pursue a writing
career. She writes fiction and nonfiction, and her new book, with co-author Luke Comer, called On
the Origin of Being Understanding the Science of Evolution to Enhance Your Quality of Life, finally
gave her the opportunity to bring her scientific training and her passion for writing together.
Studying our evolution and our ancestors has been a gift, and the journey of this book is changing
her life in countless ways.
Speaker 1
[00.01.01]
Now, a quick disclaimer for those who are Christian or otherwise religious and believe in the
creation. This episode is about evolution, but I want you to know that I also come from a Christian
background. And so you might be wondering, well, why would you put out an episode about
evolution? Well, here's how I have come to understand it over the years. They actually make sense
when they're put together. So the way I see it is that evolution is creation still happening. If God
works under natural laws, that means God works very slowly and evolution and nature also work
very, very slowly. And so essentially what I'm saying is our world and us as human beings are
incomplete and we are still being created. So listen to this episode with an open mind and see if you
can see how evolution and creation come together. And another quick note this is for everybody.
Whether you're religious or not, evolution has actually given us a lot of understanding of proper
nutrition and mental health and just overall health. So it's very important that I put out an episode on
this topic, and you'll find out why as you listen to this episode. Enjoy. Welcome to the Real Food
Mental Health podcast, where we explore the powerful connection between mental and physical
health. My name is Cody Cox, a holistic nutritional psychotherapist, and I'm here to guide you on a
journey to true wellness, mind, body, and spirit. If you're tired of quick fixes and want real solutions
that address the root cause, you're in the right place. Let's get started on your path to lasting
wellness. Welcome back to Real Food Mental Health with Cody Cox. Today I'm talking to Jenny
Powers and she is the author of The Origin of Being Jenny. Can you tell us a little bit about your
book?
Speaker 2
[00.03.06]
Sure, yeah. It came out last summer. Um, it's called On the Origin of Being. Kind of. We're paying
homage to Charles Darwin's On the Origin of Species. Uh, and it's understanding the science of
evolution to enhance your quality of life. Um, and basically what our book, the main theme of our
book is how, um, the modern world is not set up to meet our evolved biological needs. Um, as we
evolved, we kind of evolved in lockstep with our environment. Um, through millions of years and,
you know, inter agricultural revolution, industrial revolution, information age. Our environment has
changed so fast, like exponentially changed so fast that now, ah, we have a mismatch between what
our environment is giving us and what our bodies actually need. So there's this mismatch, um, formany, many different parts of our life. This first book, uh, talks about sleep, nutrition, work and rest
and our relationship with nature. Um, and it kind of tracks like the evolution of all of these
behaviors, like why we evolved a certain way and then how it went so wrong in many cases, and
why we're, um, experiencing so much pathology in our lives because we're not actually providing
our bodies, um, with their needs. And
Speaker 1
[00.04.28]
there's really a lot that's changed. And I was taught this in nutrition school, too. I mean, we can go
back tens of thousands of years and it kind of see how things have changed for our diets and
lifestyles. And I think when things really started to change was when agriculture started to become a
thing. Most definitely. And if I remember right from my training, the, the major, major, um, change
as far as what we would consider now, like modern technology would also be when the tractor
became kind of a normal part of agriculture. So that was technically the first mechanized form of
technology. And we started to see a major shift in the way that we were eating our circadian
rhythms, our lifestyle, all kinds of things. So we're going to set that aside for now. But I wanted to
start a little bit with just kind of where we are with mental health today. And we'll work our way
back more to like the ancestral principles in a minute.
Speaker 2
[00.05.34]
But
Speaker 1
[00.05.36]
what what are we dealing with today as far as mental illness goes? I mean, we look at the statistics. I
don't have the memorized. I see different numbers all the time. But.
Speaker 2
[00.05.48]
Right. And unfortunately they're all trending upwards.
Speaker 1
[00.05.51]
Yes, they are trending upwards, especially in first world countries, which is not what people would
Speaker 2
[00.05.57]
think. Exactly.
Speaker 1
[00.05.59]
And ironically, it's the third world world countries where generally they tend to be healthier
physically and mentally. Why is that?
Speaker 2
[00.06.08]
Well, I feel that third world countries are still more in touch. Um, with nature, I think there's still
more in touch with community. I think they're still more in touch with being grateful, you know, not
necessarily thinking that wealth is the end all be all. You know, money doesn't, you know, might you
might have a third world country in there, and people are happy because they have everything theyneed and they don't want anymore. They don't have this drive for more and more and more and more
and more. Um, and I really think it is a cultural outlook on, um, you know, and the Western world
kind of has this cultural, um, training that, you know, you're only happy with what you achieve.
You're only happy with what you have. You're only happy if you make so much money. Um, and so
I feel like in the West were spinning, spinning and spinning and spinning and making so much stress
on our lives because we think that what we need to be happy is out there, when really what we need
to be happy, we already have. We're just not embracing it. Um, because, you know, although
evolution didn't design us to be happy, evolution did make it so our bodies knew how to return to
equilibrium. Uh, our bodies knew how to maintain kind of a homeostatic, um. Just, you know,
everything about our bodies, our mental health, our physical health. You know how to return to
homeostasis. So if we do get perturbed out of that homeostasis, we have the tools to bring it back.
Um, and I think in the modern world, in the Western society, especially for modern health, is we are
we live in such a place that is so stressful and we have so much, um, information bombarding us
and, you know, stress of trying to achieve and working hard. And we're indoors all the time and
we're eating crappy food and we just, um, are totally out of touch. And so I feel like we have. Well,
and our bodies are always in the fight or flight. Um, and because our bodies are always in fight or
flight, we can never return to equilibrium because fight or flight is a is a non homeostatic situation.
You know, we are not we did not evolve to constantly be in this fight or flight situation. Um, it's
important to have that um sympathetic nervous system. So when you do need to be alert and active
and, you know, get something done or your life is in danger, but but it's almost as if you know how
Allergies. Um, you have a reaction to a common. You know something? It's not a pathogen. It's just
like a it's pollen or something common. Your allergies have a reaction to something that's inert.
Well, I feel like our life, which shouldn't cause any kind of reaction, but it's our lifestyle. Um, we
have a reaction to our lifestyle that is perpetually keeping us in this fight or flight. Um, because that's
not our environment is not giving us a the chance to return back to equilibrium and let our
parasympathetic nervous system, um, do its job.
Speaker 1
[00.09.25]
I actually just heard yesterday that if we focus on just one thing visually, then that in a way that
makes us feel unsafe because we are evolved to be able to move our eyes around to ensure that we're
in a state of safety. And so if we're not moving our eyes around, that sends the wrong signals to the
brain. That puts us in a state of fight or flight. And just imagine how much people are staring at
screens. And it's not even not even just the screens. I know people who read a lot of books. So it's
not even electronics. It's just that we're sedentary and we're staring and that's that's creating some
stress issues.
Speaker 2
[00.10.09]
Yeah. And I think so what the natural environment around us, um, it's called the stress stress
reduction theory that natural environments actually promote recovery from stress because although,
um, there's so many different things to look at, it has low levels of information that need to be
processed like. But, but you're always you're in the present moment and you know what's going on
around you. And having a very present, um, being in the present moment is actually very calming on
the nervous system. So when we're out in natural environments, um, you know, we are in touch with
ourselves and touch with nature, and we, we are aware of what's going on around us because, you
know, 10,000 years ago, it was a complete survival mechanism. We had to know what was going on
in order to survive. And it gave us that feedback that, okay, we're good, we're good, we're good. So
if we are just staring at one thing, um, all at once, or I think the opposite is also true, we are just wehave way too much stuff to process. So we're they're focused on one thing, and we're just sitting
down and doing nothing, or we're scrolling our phones, you know, making dinner or doing
something over here. We're we're trying to do too much, and too much is coming in and our bodies
are overwhelmed and we can't process it all. So I feel like we we need to find a happy medium
between the hyperfocus where you sit and do the same thing for three hours, but also the thing where
you're doing 15 things at once and you know your your body is just in overload.
Speaker 1
[00.11.48]
Right? Yeah. I like to tell people that it's better to just slow down, do one thing at a time, because
psychologically speaking, we can't actually multitask. Contrary to popular belief, the brain cannot
focus on more than one thing at a time. So you might as well focus on one thing at a time, because
that calms the nervous system. You're going to feel so much better being present with doing what
you're doing, but then you're also going to do a better job at it, too.
Speaker 2
[00.12.18]
Exactly. Well, and, you know, contrary to popular belief, you know, you need to have brakes. You
know, you're saying if you focus on something for two solid hours, you're actually going to be less
efficient than if you take a break every half hour and get up and walk around and move your eyes to
something else. Because if you think about, you know, how we evolved. You know, we were hunter
gatherers for 99% of our evolutionary history as hominins. And we were doing different things all
the time. You know, we were we're walking, we were gathering. We you know what I mean? We
didn't whatever we were doing, we were in that moment and doing it. But we had variety, we had
movement, we had things that actually stimulated our brains in a different way because you know
how, you know, you're working so hard and you can't figure it out, and then you're going for a walk
or you're taking a shower and all of a sudden, you know, the answer comes to you. You know, you
have to have those times where you're resting your brain and resting your body in order to, to
become more efficient. I mean, Americans, I think. The average full time worker works 47 hours a
week, and the US doesn't really give a whole lot of vacation time to people. But even if they have
vacation time, a lot of people don't even take vacation time. They don't take lunch. They they work
until ten at night because they feel like they're being more efficient. Um, when really, like you said,
you know, doing one thing at a time, taking breaks, having a variety of things to do is actually going
to make you more efficient, because that's the way our brain evolved to view the world and to view
what we had to do.
Speaker 1
[00.13.59]
Yeah. And my mind goes to countries who practice siestas,
Speaker 2
[00.14.04]
where I did see some statistics in the last couple of years, I think, um, where they said that the
countries who do the siestas end up being more productive than countries who don't. Now, keep in
mind, they are working fewer hours and yet they're more productive at the same time. Exactly.
Speaker 1
[00.14.25]
And it's because they're getting that rest.
Speaker 2[00.14.27]
Yeah, well, I think there are a lot of companies. I think there are some companies in the US who are
trying this, but a lot of companies in other countries that are trying the four day work week, and not
only are they more productive, but their employee turnover is is a lot less. Their their employees are
more dedicated because they have, you know, they have shorter amount of time to do the same
amount of work. But then they also know that they have a three day weekend. You know, that they
can get the things done for their families. They can make those appointments. They can, you know,
people who work 50 hours a week, you know, ten hours a day. There's that additional stress of not
being able to do what you need to do for your health, for your family, for, you know, our our lives
are so work centric and we did not evolve that way. Our our lives, we so our hunter gatherer
ancestors may be worked. 12 it depends on you know, what, which group you look at. But the ones
that survived into modern times, um, even in the most extreme environments, because you can
imagine, by the time scientists started studying these indigenous populations who still lived as hunter
gatherers, they were pushed to the extremes, right? They only worked maybe 12 to 20 hours a week.
And because once they had what they needed. They stopped. They they visited. They did. You
know, they danced and sang and they were with their community. I think it depends on how you
define work, too, because at least in American culture, we define work as having a job. Mhm.
Speaker 1
[00.16.05]
Where they probably didn't define it that way. Right.
Speaker 2
[00.16.08]
Exactly. It was so integrated into their life.
Speaker 1
[00.16.10]
It was. Yeah. It was part of their lifestyle. And it seems like the people who enjoy their work the
most are self-employed, or at least if they're not self-employed, it feels like it's more integrated into
their lives and their values. And it's just a healthy rhythm.
Speaker 2
[00.16.28]
Yeah. Well, and also something that I think has come up a lot that I've, that I've read is it's really
helpful for your job to feel like you have a purpose, right, to feel like you are actually contributing
something to the whole. And that is an important to have. That's an important way to have work
satisfaction. And if you think about a small hunter gatherer band, you know, they had to work
together, you know, because cooperation was the only way, you know, to survive. They weren't
competing with each other. They were trying to integrate together. And every single person in that
band had a responsibility and contributed to the band as a whole. So not only was it integrated into
their lives, but they had purpose and they had community surrounding them. So when they did, you
know, fall off, you know, the equilibrium, they had someone there to pick up the slack. If they were
sick, they were fed. Um, if you know the. I don't know. They just they had this network of support.
So, you know, they didn't they didn't ever have that that nagging stress of, well, what's going to
happen if I don't get paid tomorrow or what's going to happen if I don't work? What's going to
happen if I can't pay my bills? Like they had this support system and a safety net to fall into. So, so
automatically their stress is reduced in that way too. Mhm. I have had so many people inpsychotherapy whose core issues are lack of community and lack of purpose. Yeah, it seems like
especially among younger adults. So why is that? If you were to speculate, why are we why
Speaker 1
[00.18.17]
are we developing these these problems as, as so such a normal thing. Yeah. Well it's interesting
because this the first book that I sent to you, that's the first book in a three part series. Um, the next
book is we're going to talk about social groups and child rearing and the sexes. And really it really
focuses in on. You know, we the reason why human beings evolved their big brains and their their
intelligence, you know, their intelligence and their incredible ability to be creative and innovative
was because we formed groups. Um, and so that is kind of human beings baseline way of being is to
be surrounded by people. And and it was required for survival 10,000 years ago. Now we can
survive just fine. Well, you could you could argue if it's just fine or not, we would never have to
interact with a single person all day. And our survival is not at risk. But our bodies don't know that
our bodies are still programmed and conditioned to need that input of other people. And so I think
two things are happening, especially like in the US. Um, one is the US was founded on these, these,
these theories of like individualism and pull yourself up by the bootstraps and you can do it by
yourself and you don't need anyone. And you know, and I think. That is a very unique, um, part of
American culture, because everyone who came to the United States left family behind. They were on
their own. Right. And so you did make you did make community when you were here. But kind of
the when America was being founded and people were immigrating here, it was kind of like, you're
on your own, you know, think about people who were, you know, moving, going west, you know,
westward expansion. They were just a single family unit trying to make it all by themselves on this
big plot of land. Right. So I think there's this psyche in American culture that we don't need anyone
else. We can do it by ourselves. And we we think people who do that, um, we we idolize them.
Yeah. When in fact, it's funny, a lot of people who seem to have made it actually have so much help
on the way up. We just don't see that. Yeah. Um, so we have this illusion that we can do everything
by ourselves. And then I think the second thing that's happening is technology. Um, I think social
media is a double edged sword for sure, because, I mean, I have found that I it's amazing. I can
connect with someone from Australia or Germany or whatever, and I never would have met this
person and had this had a friendship with somebody on the other side of the world if it wasn't for
social media. But I think what young people think is that social media and having friends, you know,
having 100 friends and you know, everyone's liking your posts, that is the substitute for a social life.
And our bodies that do not respond that way. Our bodies need a social life that includes other people
being in the presence of other people. Like
Speaker 2
[00.21.30]
physically. Yeah, physically. Um, and so I feel like technology, technology makes things easier and
it's easier just to text somebody than it is to call them on the phone. It's easier to connect with
someone on social media than plan. Okay, let's meet and go for a walk. You know, I feel like while
technology is great in, so many things in this world need to be easier, there are some things that I
think we're getting too accustomed for, things just being right at our fingertips, and we don't have to
work for them. Um, and it takes a lot of work to maintain relationships and make connections with
people in real life. Um, but that is that's the current like, as we were evolving relationships with a
currency through which we were able to make innovations and move forward and survive. So I think
because we don't have that survival piece anymore, we don't need people to survive. Then we think
that we don't we don't have to have any, um, or we have to have it in a different way. But if we if
people can really study and look back at how we used to live, um. It. I think it'll dawn on them thatit's really important. It's not what you know. It's who you know. Um, and not just how many friends
you have on Facebook or likes you have on Instagram.
Speaker 1
[00.22.59]
I read a book a few years ago. I think it's called The Five Legends, and it's essentially about, uh,
Native American philosophy. I'm not sure exactly which tribe it comes from. Maybe, uh, the Navajo,
um, because the book was written in Arizona. But anyway, the five legends. So one of those legends
is called The Path of we. And so basically it's all about this sense of community or essentially being
part of the tribe, because as soon as you're not part of the tribe, you are physically in danger. Mhm.
Right. And so there's just so much value to the path of we and that sense of community feeling like
you fit in, feeling like you're part of something. But then like you were saying earlier how it
contributes to a sense of purpose. Mhm.
Speaker 2
[00.23.51]
Well I'd imagine what you just said like. When we were hunter gatherers. If we were by ourselves,
we were. Our lives were literally in danger. So imagine our bodies reacting in a fight or flight
situation. We're alone in the world. There's no one around us. We're going to be stressed out until we
find our people again. But now, fast forward to today. We're alone all the time, so that might be
another reason why we're in fight or flight all the time. Because our bodies are like we are not meant
to be alone. You know, it's this, this ancient, um, you know, leftover, uh, you know, evolutionary
behavior that we are just not aware of, that we, that we actually need to fulfill in order for our, our
nervous systems to relax and to feel safe.
Speaker 1
[00.24.39]
So this is, uh, not something I've heard very much, but I have heard it speculated that human beings
are meant to be extroverted. What do you think of that? Or are we should we essentially be
extroverted? If we are healthy, we have a pretty good metabolism. We have a strong sense of
community. Or would we still have introverts who kind of want to be alone sometimes?
Speaker 2
[00.25.06]
Well, I mean, I think personality wise, I mean, it's all it's all on a spectrum. Um, I think someone
who wanted to be alone, you know, 20,000 years ago probably didn't have very it wasn't very
successful. Um, and, but but I think there's a difference between being extroverted and just wanting
to be around people. Um, because I know lots of introverts who. They're they're the happiest sitting
in the room, like watching other people interact. You know, they're not expending their energy, but
they're they're absorbing the energy that's around them. Yes. Yeah. And so, um, but I also think
loneliness breeds loneliness, right? Being an introvert and not ever putting yourself out there makes
you more of an introvert. Um, when you are lonely, you're actually, you're you're driving. Your
desire to actually interact with people goes down. I mean, I remember during the pandemic, you
know, we were isolated because we had to be. But then it was really hard for me to like once the
pandemic, you know, was, was was ending and things were relaxing. I wanted to just stay home like.
It was this weird psychological thing where I feel like that long period of forced isolation just
reinforced my desire to to be isolated. Yeah. Um, so I feel like if we if you don't use it, you kind of
lose it. And the more you use it, the easier it is. So, um. Does that make sense? Yeah. Actually.
Ability toSpeaker 1
[00.26.44]
connect. I've noticed that personally where, like, I call it social momentum. Oh, perfect. Yeah.
Where I have noticed when I'm interacting with other people more, I want more of it. Mhm. But then
during those times when I have to sit in my office alone and just quietly work on the computer, I
want more of that. Yeah. And so like I've lost that social momentum until I force it to get. Yeah.
Speaker 2
[00.27.09]
It's Newton's third law of motion. It's it's inertia. Yeah. I think humans fall into inertia a lot,
unfortunately. Um, what? An object at rest stays at rest, and an object in motion stays in motion. I
you know, I've recently in the last year, I've really picked up, like, how much exercise I get. I started
doing taekwondo, I started lifting weights, um, I started swimming, and once I started doing all that
stuff, I wanted to do more. But then, you know, I was injured and so I didn't I couldn't do a lot of
things for maybe a month or so, and I didn't want to do it anymore, even though I knew it was. It
made me feel so good, and I just had to get over that activation energy to start doing it again. And
then it actually made me want to keep doing it. So I think the same thing happens, you know, not
just with exercise, but with social relationships too. Mhm. Yeah. And eating healthy. I mean we've
got so many problems. We were talking about how we tend to be less healthy in first world
countries. Right. America spends more on health care than any other country in the world. And yet
we're also the sickest. Yeah.
Speaker 1
[00.28.20]
So obviously we're doing something wrong with our health care. Yeah. And I think a lot of it just
has to go. It has to do with going back to our roots. What did our ancestors do? What were they
doing? Right. And yeah, they had some struggles. They dealt with drought. They, they they went
days without food because they couldn't find an animal or whatever it was. But they were healthier.
They were more connected with loved ones. Yeah. They had more of a sense of purpose than we
have now. And so what did they do? Right, that we aren't doing anymore?
Speaker 2
[00.28.53]
Yeah. Well, one thing you were saying about how bad our health care industry is, I heard this the
other day. We don't have health care in the United States. We have sick care. Yeah. Um, and so we
aren't, we? Our health care doesn't start until someone has a symptom or a sick. Health care needs to
start with people who are healthy as children, like health care needs to be integrated, you know,
more holistically into just everyday life, not health care shouldn't just kick in when you're sick. Um,
but as for what people were doing, I mean, I think. They had this, they had like you said, they had a
sense of purpose. They had community. So they knew that if they struggled, they would have
somebody to help them along. Um, they were very, very connected with the natural world and
understood that they were part of the natural world and that the natural world gave them everything
that they ever needed clean water, clean air, food, all the resources that they needed. And they also
had they knew that not only did the natural world give them everything that they needed, but they
were integrated into the natural world. They weren't above it, you know. They weren't below it, but
they but they were into it. They weren't they weren't like tree huggers and conservationists, but they
inherently knew how to have sustained, to live sustainably within their environment. Yes. And Ithink that's key to I mean, highly, highly educated professionals are all around us. And yet we're not
taught these things in graduate school or medical school. No,
Speaker 1
[00.30.32]
we are not taught to be integrated with nature. And I think that's the key.
Speaker 2
[00.30.36]
No, I totally agree. I mean, the whole section in our book about nature, I mean, talks about nature
deficit and how there's more and more studies out that, you know, not being in nature is actually a
detriment to our health. You know, not only is being in nature a boost to our health, but not being in
nature is actually a detriment to our health. Because if you think about it. You know, it was only
well 10,000 years ago is when the agricultural revolution started. And, I mean, it took many, many
thousands of years before most of the people on the world, in the world were not, um, hunter
gatherers anymore. So maybe say, 5000, 6000 years ago. So up until that point, we lived every
single day in nature like it was our natural habitat. Um, you know, we had shelters and stuff, but our
shelters were made, you know, from things we found in nature, from animal skins or sticks or
whatever. And we were on the ground. We slept on the ground, you know, we woke up and we had
sun in our eyes every day. We saw we saw the sunsets. We thought we were. So it was, you know, it
was our natural habitat. I think we're the only species in the world that doesn't live in a natural
habitat anymore. Um, and if you look at animals who get taken out of their natural habitat and put in
zoos and things like that, they get sick. Sick? Yeah. They are not happy. You know, they call this,
they call it zoonosis or something like that. Um, so they actually have to have interventions, you
know, with the animals to make sure that they're, that they can not be so physically and mentally ill.
Um, so think about us. We are not in our natural habitat. So we have all of these interventions to,
you know, drugs and, you know, all of these, um. You know all the things that bombard us when
really, if we just go back to where we were from, we don't. Everything is provided for us. So again,
we were talking about this earlier. It's easier. It's easier said than done because I think the the force
of the modern world is like this huge, fast current that all the fish are swimming and they're just kind
of just they're just taken by this current and it's almost impossible to swim the other direction unless
there are people around you supporting you. So, so I feel like this journey to holistic health, you
know, more more lifestyle health isn't isn't something you can do by yourself. Um, which also
harkens back to something that people need me. People need more others to, to be healthy. So I think
the fact that in order to kind of turn into the current, you're not going to be able to do it alone. Um,
so there's so I'm actually really excited, you know, I wasn't on social media for a long time. And then
when I got on because the book was published, just finding all of these people like yourself who are,
you know, the ground, the ground roots, you know, the, the. Okay. Everything's kind of coming from
the bottom up. Um, just to start this change, because it's not going to come from the top down. Um,
in terms of teaching people how to actually be healthy, um, and not just manage their sickness.
Speaker 1
[00.34.01]
Yeah, it is coming from the ground up. And I like the term follow the money because as we we look
at capitalism and we see how people are making money, especially in, in what we call health care.
Or we could call it sick care, obviously, that there's something wrong with that if they're making so
much money off of it. Because really, when we look at ancestral health, we see that they were
healthy without money. Mhm. They didn't have to have a successful business. They didn't have billsto pay. And yeah, I mean as as things progressed over time we started having a little bit of money.
And even 100 years ago, 150 years ago, people were still pretty integrated with nature.
Speaker 2
[00.34.46]
Yeah. Because most people were actually involved in our food production. You know, I feel like
when we were hunter gatherers, we were. We know who killed that animal. We know who gathered
that we were so integrated in where we got our food. Um, because that was that was work. Getting
the food was the work. And now, um, like you said, 100 years, 150 years ago, even though it was
agricultural, not hunter gatherer people worked the land. They knew what it took to to, you know, to
make a, you know, a wheat harvest or they knew what it took for all of this animal husbandry. Um,
they they actually slaughtered their own animals. So they were so connected with where we got our
food and so therefore could, could appreciate and be grateful for what they, what they received
because they know the work that got put into it and they actually know, you know, the respect for
the animals, um, that they're raising to, to eat eventually. Uh, and we're so disconnected now. I
mean, I don't think, you know, you get a loaf of bread and you toast it in the morning and no one's
thinking like, okay, where was the farmer who harvested this? You know who, um, who worked at
the factory that milled the grain. You know, the baker, the people. You know, even the people who
are, like, in HR for all these people, like, all of these people work together to bring you this loaf of
bread. Um, and for us, we just get it off the shelf and and make our make our sandwiches and don't
have any thought to where it came from. Um,
Speaker 1
[00.36.22]
we take it for granted and overconsume. Yeah. And and I mentioned the invention of the tractor
earlier because that's about when we started over consuming because we I mean, grains technically
weren't originally part of our diet. Right? But then when we started doing the agriculture, we started
growing a lot of grains. And with the tractor, we started eating a lot more grains. And so now at this
point, we have this imbalance of macronutrients in in the average American diet and probably in
other countries as well, we're eating a whole lot more carbohydrates than we should, and
unfortunately in a very refined form as well. What does that do to our
Speaker 2
[00.37.07]
health? Oh man. So as we evolved, what's really cool is that, um, human evolution and nutrition
were totally in lockstep, especially the evolution of our bigger brains, because as we evolved bigger
brains, we needed our nutrition to be able to support it. And our our brains. What do our brains
need? Glucose. Right. So we actually did need to start learning how to process our food. But when I
say process our food, it means something totally different than what we have today.
Speaker 1
[00.37.39]
It means preparing
Speaker 2
[00.37.40]
we. We ground things, you know, we soaked things, we cooked things, but we always ate the whole
food, right? So the only reason we processed this food, prepared this food, was so the nutrients were
more readily available to be absorbed. Because as we as we got bigger brains, our our guts shrank.
So we needed to have more efficient absorption. Um, and so I feel like all throughout humanevolution, like we processing foods, getting, getting high density, nutrient rich, high calorie foods
are was like the goal of evolution because we needed to feed our brains, but we've taken it way too
far. We've totally overreached because now we're processing things basically down to there, you
know, just sugar, protein, fat, they're just they're processed. There's nothing else, you know, in those
things. And then we're making products out of these stripped down. Macronutrients were like
slamming them together and selling them for $10, you know, candy bars, you know? And so we are
not we were processing way too much. We're not eating the whole foods. And and we're actually
trusting other people to make our nutritional choices for us because we are not the ones choosing the
vegetables in the meat and the we're letting other people just basically refine all of these basic things
out and sticking them together. And then here's something healthy for you. Um, so so I feel like, um,
knowing the history of how we needed to start processing foods in order to feed our brains, but then
how we went way overboard. I think that helps people maybe come back, pull back a little bit, and
be able to look at it from from a little bit of a distance to be like, okay, we did process food, but we
ate the husk, we ate the seeds, you know, animal products, we ate the tendons and the organs, and
we basically ate everything that nature provided. We didn't we didn't pick and choose what we ate.
Um,
Speaker 1
[00.39.53]
yeah. And we didn't waste. Yeah.
Speaker 2
[00.39.55]
We didn't waste.
Speaker 1
[00.39.58]
So I very closely follow the Western Enterprise Foundation, and they teach those same principles
where it's like you eat nose to tail and not not just to reduce waste, but because you need that
nutrition. And you mentioned how like we stripped down these macronutrients. I actually I very
seriously considered becoming a dietitian. I took one nutrition class at a university and I was like,
something's not right about this. Because I did start to notice that most dietitians hyper focus on the
macros, and they don't talk very much about the micronutrients. And that's exactly the part that we're
missing. We are missing those micronutrients. I mean, yeah, maybe in some cases we have an
imbalance of macros, too. For example, a lot of people don't get enough protein. But but we really
need those vitamins and the minerals and those other things that they don't talk about. Yeah.
Speaker 2
[00.40.53]
Well, I mean, think about the explosion of the supplement industry. Why do people need
supplements? Because they're not getting it from their diet. Yeah, because it's not because the food
doesn't have it. It's because it's getting stripped out of the food before it's shipped to us. Um. So a
return to eating whole foods. You know, maybe people don't. You know, there's some certain people
who want to make money, and so they don't want people to eat whole foods. They want people to eat
the crappy food and then take their supplements. But but if people realized and could just, like,
again, take a step back and be like, well, why am I spending money on all of these supplements?
Why can't they just go to the grocery store and buy the foods and eat the foods that have those in it?
You know it. It's I think it's because it's easier to take a supplement than it is to go to the grocery
store and prepare, you know, find something and prepare it. You know, we live such busy, busylives. We're always go, go, go go. We need something fast and easy and. But if we just slowed down
and you were talking about this earlier, doing one thing at a time, um, being able to actually have the
time to think about. Well, I need to buy, you know, I have a deficiency in X, so I need to buy these
foods, and I need to make sure that I eat a lot more of these foods. That takes time and effort and
brainpower that our modern world is just not allowing us to have it. It's not. We're on this other
conveyor belt over here, when really what we need to do for ourselves is off the conveyor belt.
Speaker 1
[00.42.25]
I like to blame consumerism for all of this. I
Speaker 2
[00.42.28]
think that's a very true statement.
Speaker 1
[00.42.30]
I mean, we think we have to have full time jobs because we have these bills that we think we have
to pay. And yeah, in some cases, we probably do need the money to spend on on those organic
groceries or whatever, but it's not really that much of a need as we think it is. I agree, because if we
are integrated with nature, nature provides. And that's just the thing. Like, I have noticed that as we
start tampering with nature and fighting against it, it doesn't provide as much in return. And so we
need to go back to our roots and honor nature, because it's it's kind of a synergistic relationship
where we give to nature, and nature gives back.
Speaker 2
[00.43.12]
Totally. It totally is. Um, the section in our in our book about work and rest. We talk about
materialism and how, you know, a very early farmer would have more possessions than an entire
band of hunter gatherers because all they needed, you know, they were nomadic. They could only
carry what they could carry on their backs, and they didn't need to have stuff to. To make life worth
living. You know, they didn't have stuff. They found things that didn't require stuff to do. Um, I read
this really good book. I wonder if I have it. Um, it's by, um, doctor Chip Colwell. It's called so much
Stuff. And he actually goes through kind of the the evolution and the origin of material culture. And
it's really eye opening to, to understand, like, you know, we don't we don't need, you know, so now
we live in bigger houses with fewer people, and we still have to buy storage units to fit all of our
stuff. Right? You know, even even 50 years ago, our houses were smaller, more people lived in
them. They're more intergenerational people living together. And and we didn't need all that stuff we
had. We had other people. And so I, I feel like our consumer culture is trying to get us to buy things
to fill up the holes that we have because we're by ourselves in our, you know, in our offices, staring
at a screen all day. And so we feel like we need to have all this other stuff to to feel healthy and
happy when it just is an empty it's an empty promise because those things won't fill that hole. People
need to realize, really, that the the deep down root cause of why they have this feeling of lack.
Speaker 1
[00.45.04]
What is the root cause,
Speaker 2
[00.45.07]man? We're just so disconnected from each other. Yeah, I think, um. We.
Speaker 1
[00.45.14]
Yeah. And when you say each other too, like, I mentioned this a couple times already, but I think
nature is part of
Speaker 2
[00.45.20]
that. Yes.
Speaker 1
[00.45.22]
Like nature is part of our community. It's not just this separate thing that's just outside. Yeah.
Speaker 2
[00.45.29]
So we're separated. I mean, it's a very Buddhist kind of thing to, to talk about, but we we are like
our souls are set up or whatever you think we are, are separated from nature or separated from other
people were separated from purpose. Um, we're separated from, like, all the good in the world. We
people don't realize, you know, if they're separated, they don't. They don't have gratitude. Um, if
they're separated, they have a lot of fear. Um, so. So I think separation, no matter what we're
separated from, um, we really should be more integrated.
Speaker 1
[00.46.10]
In my mind kind of goes to sleep too, as you talk about being separated and how that. It's such a
simple thing, but so many people are dealing with sleep disorders or just sleep concerns in general
right now. The majority of Americans, let's be honest, and I think it has to do with that separation
from nature, because it has very much to do with with diurnal rhythms. So night and day we have
lights on, I think. Hot and cold. Yeah. The LED lights are particularly problematic in my opinion,
where it stimulates the brain. It makes us it makes our brain think it's daytime. And so then we can't
sleep, right? Because we're staring at those LED lights on our TVs while we're watching something
on Netflix right before we go to bed, or LEDs in our smartphones as we're scrolling through
Instagram or TikTok or whatever it is. And it's also that constant stimulation, um, your brain doesn't
know it's time to start winding down. Um, so it's not only, you know, the, the visual input, but also
just the ruminating input. Um, the entertainment, the flashy lights, all of this stuff coming at us is
stressful to our bodies. And so it takes a long, a lot longer to to calm down and get to and to a sleep
state. But we were talking about sleep, and I think this is another place where we're separated. So
we're separated from nature, but we're also separated from our bodies. Our bodies tell us things and
we don't listen. We might not even know. Our bodies are trying to tell us things. But when you start
yawning at night, it's time to go to. It's time to get ready for bed. But so how many people just ignore
that and say, I have to do two more hours of work, or I have to binge watch this program? Or I think
what you were saying earlier, you know, there's a culture of like, we have to go out and party til two
in the morning, you know? But so all of those things are contributing to this sleep epidemic, when
really we're we're disconnected from what our bodies are already telling us. We have evolved to
learn how to to read the signals our bodies give us. And the difference between us in the modern
world and hunter gatherers is that when they got a signal from their body, they did it. They they paid
attention.
Speaker 2[00.48.30]
Honored their body and paid attention to their body. And we're connected to their body. Um,
Speaker 1
[00.48.36]
and it seems like I know this is a very small time frame in the grand scheme of evolution, but in the
last hundred years or so, with the invention of air conditioning that brought us inside the invention of
the television and or the radio first and then the television, these things brought us inside and made
us start being more and more isolated from our neighbors. Oh, yeah. But but then the internet made
that so, so much worse, which I believe was invented in the 80s. It wasn't really a it didn't really start
being a more popular thing until the 90s, but ever since then, I'm noticing it's getting worse and
worse as people are hiding in their bedrooms in the dark, staring at their smartphones, especially
young adults. Um, we are watching videos on YouTube, we're watching movies on Netflix. All these
different things are keeping us isolated and disrupting our sleep and causing so many problems. And
all of this is really just in the last hundred years or so.
Speaker 2
[00.49.44]
Yeah, I would say maybe the last 50. Yeah. Yeah, I think also another thing that is a problematic
with that too. So it interrupts our sleep and our connections with people. But then there's advertising.
I mean, all of these everything on the internet is monetized. So because people want to make money,
so you're being told that you need to buy this and that you need to eat this food and that you need to
buy this supplement. So you're you're not necessarily even conscious or connecting, like, okay, do I
really need this thing or am I buying it because this person told me to because I have this, I'm upset
or I'm sad. Um, so so it's the consumerism. And I think the consumerism, um, totally plays into our,
you know, nutritional metabolic problems.
Speaker 1
[00.50.37]
Unfortunately, we're running out of time. I wish we could get back to you, but, uh, Jenny, if there
was just one thing that you could change about the way people approach health and wellness, what
would it be?
Speaker 2
[00.50.50]
Oh, that's a really good question because there's so many different things. Um, and I and I think it's
important for people to know that, like, what works for some people isn't going to work for other
people. We're all such individual people. But but I think it starts with getting to know yourself. Like
we need to reconnect with ourselves. So and sometimes it's really painful. The reason why
everyone's distracted is because sometimes it's really hard to connect with yourself and be with
yourself. Um, but we have to be able to interpret the things that our bodies need, uh, in order to
address them properly. And, and like I was just saying a minute ago, you know, we evolved our
bodies. Tell us what we need. We just we need to return to figuring out what those signals are, and
then we have to honor it. We have to put down the phone. We have to say, I'm not going to work
anymore. I'm not going to binge watch this show and actually put ourselves first, our health first over
our entertainment, over our work. Um, so I think that's that's the most important thing for me at least.
It has been beautiful. Yeah. And one last thing. How can people find you? How can they find your
book? Is it. I assume it's on Amazon. Yeah, yeah. The usual places. It's on. Yeah, it's on anywhere
you can buy books online. Um. Excuse me. Uh, our website is on the origin of being com. Uh, andthen I'm also on Instagram, uh, at On the origin of being. And. Yeah, we're just, um, like I said, it's
been just this wild ride since it since it came out, um, last summer. And it's just been fun to meet
people from all over the world and, and talk to them about it. So I really appreciate you having me
on your show. Yeah.
Speaker 1
[00.52.38]
Thank you so much for being here. Hey, you just wanted to give a quick shout out to the winner of
my Metabolic Health Bundle giveaway, which ended on February 28th. Congratulations, Rachel.
And also wanted to mention if you didn't catch the bonus episode that was released on Monday,
March 3rd. You might want to go back and listen to that because we talked about the nutritional
assessment, which is a service that I offer, but I'm also offering a free nutritional assessment, which
is normally $99. So go back and listen to that episode if you are interested. If you enjoyed this
episode, make sure you leave a review that really helps me out and also subscribe to the show
wherever you listen to your podcasts. Real Food Mental Health is intended for informational and
entertainment purposes only. The information presented on this podcast is not intended to replace
any medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. While I am a health care provider, I am not your
provider. Always seek the advice of an appropriate health care practitioner with any personal
questions you may have regarding a medical condition. Never disregard professional medical advice
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