009: Holistic Approaches to Disordered Eating and Nutritional Therapy with Abigail Barber, NTP
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Speaker 2
[00.00.00]
Hey, welcome back if you are listening on the day of release for this episode, it is December the 26th.
That means it's the day after Christmas. If you celebrate Christmas, I hope you had a merry Christmas.
And if not, I still hope you had a great day. Today's guest is Abigail Barber and she and I discuss in this
episode Disordered Eating. But I think it's an important yet controversial topic to discuss. And
controversial because there are different perspectives. It kind of depends on which nutritionist and which
therapist you're talking to about these things. But it's good to get different perspectives on what causes
eating disorders and how to address them, so I hope you enjoy it. I wanted to mention one more thing.
This is the last time I'm going to say this. I'm offering a 20% discount on all of my packages before the
end of the year, so if you want to take advantage of that, make sure you go to my website by December
31st. That's Beavercreek wellness.com. Go to appointments, click on Book Now under one of the
packages and use the promo code podcast two for for 20% off your first payment.
Speaker 1
[00.01.17]
Welcome to the Real Food Mental Health podcast, where we explore the powerful connection between
mental and physical health. My name is Cody Cox, a holistic nutritional psychotherapist, and I'm here to
guide you on a journey to true wellness mind, body, and spirit. If you're tired of quick fixes and want real
solutions that address the root cause, you're in the right place. Let's get started on your path to lasting
wellness. Welcome back to the Real Food Mental Health podcast. Today's guest is Abigail Barber, who
is a nutritional therapy practitioner from Jacksonville, Florida. She began her journey into the holistic
health space as a teenager, watching her mother conquer a long term autoimmune disease through natural
means, as well as facing a health struggle of her own. A seven year battle with an eating disorder. Since
then, she has worked in health food stores, organic delis and nonprofits that promote community
wellness. She founded her own nutritional therapy practice and named it Enduring Wellness to highlight
the deep and lasting healing that takes place when we choose a root cause real food mindset. Her
passions in the health space include mental and emotional wellness, women's health, and culinary
wellness. Welcome, Abigail.
Speaker 2
[00.02.35]
Thanks, Cody. It's good to be here.
Speaker 1
[00.02.38]
Tell us a little bit about your backstory. What got you into holistic health? I mean, obviously I read some
of that in your bio. You have a history with an eating disorder. You kind of saw your mom get into that.
But what what made you want to be a practitioner?
Speaker 2
[00.02.55]
That's a really good question. And because this podcast isn't three hours long, I'll try to give the summary
version. But I think there were there were two driving factors that really made me get into the holistic
mindset and approach to health. Um, one did come through my journey with the eating disorder, um,
because I had been exposed to two different worlds. Like I mentioned, my mother had struggled with an
autoimmune disease, and so our whole family had taken this journey into, um, the health and wellness
space into approaching things not from just a symptoms approach, but from a root cause approach. Eatinghealthier, learning terms like what it meant to be gluten free, or what it meant to be paleo, or what it
meant to be all these different things. Then you have me going through an eating disorder, which is of
course characterized by. Obsessive forms of restriction and manipulating food for in a certain way. Um,
so having to come to grips with both of those and figure out what I knew to be nutritional realities, or
what I knew to be true nutritionally without letting it control your life. Really just, uh, pushed me
forward into trying to understand more about what holistic health really means. Um, so that and I know
we'll probably get into that today, but, um, I also want to say, too, that I think what what drove me to get
training through the Nutritional Therapy Association, what drove me to make this my life's passion really
came through working in local health food stores. Um, and what was a passion became took on a new life
of its own when I realized, you know, in a certain sense, we're all trying to figure this out loud, and, um,
it's becoming a lot more professionalized. The health and wellness space is becoming more, um,
documented. I feel like there's more research around it. But even a couple of years ago, it was kind of
people just trying to figure out. And I read on Doctor So-and-so's blog that you should try this and what
have you tried this? Or if you tried this and and we're all just trying to figure it out. And I thought, let me
see if there's a place where I can get some credentials, some learning, uh, some kind of a comprehensive,
grounded, um. Education on where to go with this. And so that when I talk to people, I'm not just saying,
well, hey, I heard so-and-so said this, but I actually understand how the body works. I understand how
food plays a role in that. And so I think that both of those pieces together put me where I am right now,
just passionate about, um, holistic wellness, but also how it integrates into real life problems like eating
disorders or like, um, people who are coming from a more conventional mindset. So that's what I would
say.
Speaker 1
[00.05.46]
Yeah. So you worked at multiple health food stores or you were just at one for a while, and mostly I did
one or only
Speaker 2
[00.05.54]
just one. Um, I ended up moving across the country. So that kind of changed that a little bit. But my time
at this local health food store was huge. Um, I absolutely loved it. It
Speaker 1
[00.06.05]
was great. Yeah. And I think if I were on a similar path, I would eventually want more training too,
because like being in that environment of a health food store where I think most shoppers are fairly
health conscious, that's why they come there in the first place, right? Like once in a while you get
shoppers who are just curious and maybe they just want a quick snack, but they don't really care if it's
healthy. Um, but most of them are there for a reason. And, and as an employee, that probably made you
really curious. And it's like, well, I, I really want better training so I can I can help people like this rather
than simply checking out their groceries for them.
Speaker 2
[00.06.45]
Yes. And most people would come in. And you're right, they were very health conscious. And I just
learned a ton because you never knew who was going to walk in the door and someone might walk in the
door and be like, so I heard lectins are bad for you. And I was like, I don't even know what a lectin is, but
I'm going to look it up and let's talk about this. Or do you know of an herb that can help with blah blah
blah? I'm just like, well, let's look it up. So definitely learned a lot. And the customers taught me a lot.
Yeah, and I like what you said too, about how, like, there's more research now. Thankfully. And
honestly, I don't know who we can thank for that, but I've noticed that there is more. Mhm. Maybe that's
a confirmation bias thing on our parts. I don't know but but it does seem like there's more and there's, it's,it might be that they're independently funded people who just really want to get that information out. So
they're willing to just get it out regardless of the cost. But people don't realize, like when we go to school,
whether it's it's high school, it's college, or even starting in elementary school, we're taught these very
specific dogmatic principles that, in my opinion, are based on biased and outdated research.
Speaker 1
[00.07.58]
And if we end up with a health problem or we have a loved one with the health problem, we find
ourselves at a loss for information even when we talk to the doctor. And so we have to start taking it
upon ourselves to to find more information. And usually that's kind of when we go down that rabbit hole,
so to speak. But there are trainings and there are there are really good sources of research out there in
recent years. And and I would agree with you on that point, too, that it seems like in the last couple of
years particularly and again, I don't know why, but it is a good thing. It is
Speaker 2
[00.08.37]
a good thing. It is a good thing. I think even a few years ago, you talked to someone about taking a
probiotic and they'd be like, what? Why? And what is that? But now. It's it's like common. Everyone's
like oh yeah, yeah. I went and got probiotics and you're like okay, well that's good you know. So
definitely progress.
Speaker 1
[00.08.55]
Yeah. And probiotics too. Um, most of these things we can get from real food where it's like, you don't
even have to take a supplement. Most of the time you can eat fermented foods and still get probiotics.
You can dig in a garden and get probiotics even when you're not eating the soil yourself, like I yeah, like
there are different ways of of getting these nutrients that we don't realize because once again, we're
taught to buy a product or we're taught to buy a service. Mhm. So kind of coming back to your personal
story, as you, you navigated through this eating disorder, you worked at the health health food store. You
kind of saw your mom work her way through an autoimmune disease. What was the main thing that you
found that helped?
Speaker 2
[00.09.41]
Wow. That's a really good question. I think I think it goes back to kind of what you touched on about
how you view food. And I think even working with clients or working with people who are sort of in the
standard American diet or in, in just culture, haven't really thought about food this way, is that. It's
primarily a matter of like taste or convenience or just what you're used to, and you're not used to thinking
of food as medicine. And if you think about it that way, you know, nobody's like, oh, my medicine
doesn't taste good. I don't think I'll take it or oh yeah, I don't feel like it today. I guess I'll just skip, you
know, my medicine. Um, and that's not to say that then the real food isn't good because of course, I'm
very passionate about you can make it delicious. And it's all about shifting your taste buds from hyper
palatable to. But, you know, that's another discussion. But I think realizing that food is a tool, maybe if
you say it that way, like food is a tool and it's a resource, and if you unlock that resource, you can get a
whole lot of benefit from it. It's not just something you got to eat to survive, but like in my mom's case,
she realized, if I take out this and this, then that's going to stop having an inflammatory effect on my
body. And if I put in this and that and or intentionally focus on this, it's going to give me these nutrients
or these things to then help my body feel better. When you eat well, you feel better, you then naturally
begin to just have an affection for those foods. I think then for the eating disorder also, just me personally
having to do the hard work of learning not to fear food, which is very needed and very important, and to
not be afraid to eat pizza and not be afraid to to eat these things. And then there. There came a time
where I had to choose a healthy mindset shift to realize that I can still use food as a tool, um, withoutletting it, you know. Be a tool for the wrong reasons, like it can be a tool for the right reasons, and I can
have a healthy perspective on that. Um, but the just the common theme of how are you going to make
your food work for you instead of you serving either your taste buds or convenience or, you know,
whatever those things may be. So I don't know if that makes sense. That's kind of a general theme. I think
I would, I would say is,
Speaker 1
[00.12.09]
yeah, food. Food is medicine. And as you were talking, I was kind of thinking, like
Speaker 2
[00.12.17]
dietitians generally, I can't speak for all of them because some of them are very holistic, but generally
they are taught that food is fuel, and that's pretty much it. And it's like in a way, I feel like because they
teach the general public that principle, it almost
Speaker 1
[00.12.36]
encourages disordered eating habits. What would you say is the main cause for disordered eating?
Speaker 2
[00.12.42]
There's so many different reasons. I feel like they're individual, but I'd say if there were big categories. I
mean, one is just and it gets talked about and it's being more talked about, but just the media. And I know
for me that was huge. What's being portrayed as what's normal for a woman or man to look like. And um,
that if I'm especially if you're a Type-A person, you're like, If I'm not, if I don't look like this, then there
must be something wrong, and I need to change my body so that I can look like this or be like this. So I
think media and the use of Photoshop and all those things do play a role in it. Um, you know, I think you
could go a little bit more philosophical. I mean, some people turn to it because of trauma, because of
uncontrolled things in their life. I know I have friends who that's the case where it was family situations
or abusive situations that then made them focus on what I can control. Um, it all kind of stems back to
control in some ways. And, um, it could also be just the food itself. I mean, maybe, maybe the standard
American diet, the, the ultra processed foods, it's not good for your brain and stuff happens and you
you're not in a good space. And so you're more prone to these obsessive compulsive thoughts and, and
just diet culture in general. I think a lot of people probably have undiagnosed eating disorders because
unfortunately, especially women, because it's considered normal. You know, it's nobody blinks an eye if
a woman goes on a diet and nobody questions. A lot of times at least, I found if you lose weight, nobody
tends to assume that it might be a bad thing. Um, everybody's very quick to praise you. And so I think
things like that and probably all of those things combined go against someone if they're trying to battle an
eating disorder. Yeah. I mean, sorry, I kind of put you on the spot with a loaded question there, but I love
it. But I totally agree, though. I mean, there are so many things that culminate into disordered eating. And
so I think it's worth pointing out, though, that like, as a therapist myself, I can diagnose people with
eating disorders. And I do agree, there are there's a lot of disordered eating out there, but disordered
eating isn't necessarily diagnosable. And so that's where like people get really confused. So orthorexia for
instance, is not a diagnosable condition. But I would call that disordered eating. Mhm. Yeah. And so
people get confused with the the official clinical terminology. But in my mind as a nutritionist it's still
disordered eating. And it probably still should be addressed in some way. Um, going back to with food
being merely fuel, I was thinking maybe that's one of the major causes of disordered eating, because we
tend to oversimplify its importance. And you were talking about how food is medicine. It's it's not just
fuel. It's it's nourishment. Yes. And we tend to forget that, like when we look at food, we tend to forgetthis food is going to nourish my body and make up the cells that my body needs to be healthy, to have
energy to, to do all these things that I need to do in this life. It is not simply fuel. The body itself is made
up entirely of nutrients.
Speaker 1
[00.16.07]
And so when when we oversimplify food and call it fuel, we are implying that the body would exist
without nutrients. Mhm.
Speaker 2
[00.16.16]
That's a really good point. And I'm picking up what you're putting down because it's in the diet culture or
in popular culture, food is basically reduced to how many calories like the merit of food is encapsulated
in how many calories it contains. So that's a very good point that if you're, you know, and then you say,
well, okay, if you want to lose weight, just look at your calories. You're not thinking about the nutrients
you're depriving yourself of. Or and, you know, I wasn't thinking about what my hormones need to be
fully functional. I wasn't thinking about what my thyroid needs. I wasn't thinking about because nobody
talks about that. They just talk about how you look. And so that's a very good point. I, I definitely
resonate with that.
Speaker 1
[00.16.58]
And there are certain nutrients too, that I've come across in various research books and things that
supposedly really help with disordered eating. Have you found anything like in your work or in your own
research specifically like foods or supplements that might be really helpful in improving a person's body
image and and motivation to change their food habits?
Speaker 2
[00.17.23]
Yes. From a from a food perspective, it's I mean, that's the trick with eating disorders. It is a revolving
door when your body has more nutrients to work with, especially when your brain has more nutrients to
work with, it's going to recover. It's going to start thinking on a different plane. But if you're in a state
where you're restricting, you know, there's a bit of a tug of war of the the, you know, the forces that are
telling you not to eat and then what you really need. But, um, I know I experienced as I began to recover
and began to take in more nutrition just in general. Then you begin to start thinking more clearly and you
begin to be like, oh, I have more energy. I have more ability to think, um, I think if somebody is, you
know, trying to actively recover from an eating disorder, I mean, I know that, um, anything that would be
good for, for brain health, more carbohydrates, that is something that I've at least personally found. And I
think other people I've talked to, that's one of the things that gets most restricted. And because
carbohydrates are so important for your brain and for your energy and just your stamina, it's amazing
how once you've restricted them and then you start to eat them. You're like, whoa, I feel really good. I
don't how am I not like, why do I not feel this good before? And then they're like, oh, it was
carbohydrates. So, you know, things in general like that. Healthy fats for the brain. Um, and then I think,
you know, all the micronutrients and this is a bit of a, of a, of a sidestep. But I think one of the things that
I was really passionate about is that two years into my recovery, with real active recovery, I began seeing
a holistic practitioner who did muscle testing and did different, um, uh, modalities and assigned
supplements. And, and what I realized is the eating disorder wreaks so much havoc on your organs, like
your thyroid like, your liver like, and so specific nutrients targeted at those, um, you know, nutrients for
the thyroid, nutrients for liver, all those things then help your body actually heal and repair. Um, so I
don't know that I could point out any one nutrient that it's like, oh, yes, that. But just in general, having
micronutrient and macronutrient rich, but not to overlook the micronutrients because that's really
important for repairing your body.Speaker 1
[00.19.47]
Yeah, and the micronutrients are often overlooked, especially when we're listening to conventional
dieticians, because they're not really taught to focus on the micronutrients. So. So for listeners who don't
know what micronutrients are, essentially they are vitamins and minerals. And, and you could take that a
little further. Maybe the essential fatty acids and, and certain amino acids, things like that too. But um,
but these are really the smaller nutrients that pack a big punch as far as the function goes in the body. So
it's not just about focusing on fats, carbs and protein. Um,
Speaker 2
[00.20.22]
yes. Or focusing on mere calories just. Okay, you need to just ingest enough calories, which at a certain
point is needed, especially in more severe disordered eating cases, eating disorder cases. But there
definitely needs to be a consideration for that because you're trying to rebuild not just body composition,
but your organs really from the inside out. So it's very important.
Speaker 1
[00.20.47]
And once your organs are rebuilding and they're repairing, your your body is going to function better,
which means your brain is going to function better and you're just going to feel better overall. And so
that's kind of my speculation. I wasn't anticipating that we would go at eating disorders with this angle,
um, today. But um, there is a book called Gut and Psychology Syndrome by Doctor Natasha Campbell
McBride. And that book specifically talks about disordered eating and how repairing the gut through
whole foods can really help a person with an eating disorder. And because I wasn't anticipating talking
about this, I didn't review it. So I can't like off the top of my head explain why. But if I were to speculate,
it really is just about repairing the gut with whole foods, because as you repair the gut, you're also
repairing the signals from the gut to the brain. And. A lot of us don't realize that there is a very strong
connection between the gut and the brain, and it really affects mental health when we've got digestive
issues.
Speaker 2
[00.21.55]
Yes. And I would like to I'd like to bring up a thread too, because you mentioned digestive issues,
because this is another nuance to throw out. There is, you know, part of the struggle of eating disorder
and recovery is digestive problems dealing with bloating, dealing with constipation, dealing with all these
things that can then feed the negative thoughts and the negative feedback loop of not wanting to eat. So I
think that that's also a huge part of it, and it was huge for me to get my digestion back online, because
then it creates a positive feedback cycle. And it's not just a matter of repeating, it's a matter of nourishing
the gut. So yes. What you said that something I've thought about a lot.
Speaker 1
[00.22.39]
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Like you're you're basically basically repairing that, that positive
feedback loop to where if your body is able to absorb the nutrients that you're eating, everything is going
to be better. Yes. Also true everything. And so, I mean, it is a matter of healing leaky gut syndrome. Or
I'm or you might call it hyper intestinal permeability. But then also the absorption piece is super, super
important for the the repair of your organs, including the brain. And you mentioned eating. You
mentioned eating carbs, healthy fats. The brain is mostly made of fat. And so fat is not to be demonized.And so it's like definitely one of those things that, yeah, we should seek out good quality, but we should
also make sure our body is absorbing it and using it correctly, too. And that's where the digestion thing
comes in. Yes,
Speaker 2
[00.23.35]
yes, I agree, and that's approaching it from a holistic perspective, I think would take that into account to
not just eat enough. But let's make sure your body is getting what you're eating and that we're targeting
specific things that we know it's lacking, um, because of past history. So yeah, I would agree with that.
Speaker 1
[00.23.56]
If you want to support this podcast go to kofi.com/codex. That's kofi.com/cody Cox as you watched your
mom overcome an autoimmune disease. What were some things that she found to be the most helpful in
her recovery? So we're kind of shifting away from the eating disorders for now. I think we'll probably
transition back to it as we get closer to the end. But I'd really like to touch on the autoimmune disease
just because we haven't talked about that before on this podcast.
Speaker 2
[00.24.29]
Yes. Well that is um, yeah, I'll give the maybe the CliffsNotes version. But my mom struggled with
Lyme disease for it was undiagnosed for, I'd say about 20 years or so. Um, got bounced around different
specialists. You know, how the how it goes and everybody's looking at the symptoms and so they, they
punch you over someone else to look at your symptoms. Long story short, I ended up finally getting a
diagnosis and beginning to approach it from a holistic perspective. She also did do a lot of medications, a
lot of very intense medications. And watching her go through that, it felt like some of the medications
were worse than the disease. Um, but then she found we we used a lot of essential oils. That was
something that really, really helped her, um, and some high quality essential oils. And then we used also
supplementation, some high quality Multivitamins, omega three supplementation, and some antioxidant
supplementation. And then she did the diet, the, you know, all the inflammatory things that you could
think of for someone in that kind of state that she was in. So like, no dairy, no gluten, no sugar, no, you
know, um, what was the other thing? There were certain spices she didn't eat of kind of approaching like
a paleo diet, more or less. Um,
Speaker 1
[00.25.45]
yeah, I
Speaker 2
[00.25.47]
yeah, kind of more of a ape. And but, you know, so the diet was crucial, I think definitely. Then, um,
attacking the, the lime with the oils and the supplements, um, we saw dramatic. I mean, in, in a couple
months, she was better than she'd been in years. And today she's recovered and she's busier than I am,
and she's very, very healthy. And so I think that was a huge shift for our family, just realizing that there
are other options and that it takes work, but you can take your health into your own hands. Not that the
medical community isn't valuable, but just its limitations. Saw that, its limitations. Um, so I would
definitely say it's going to be different for everyone, but. Um, you know, the diet was huge and and the
other supplements as well. Mhm.
Speaker 1[00.26.37]
So you're kind of setting me up to ask this question. You said you can take, take your health into your
own hands, which I don't disagree with. But then what would you say the purpose is in hiring a
practitioner.
Speaker 2
[00.26.50]
That's a very good point. I think the purpose in hiring a practitioner then is, um, sort of the same reason
that maybe as well. Okay. I don't know if I want to, to dovetail onto that, but it's sort of like you can read
a lot and you can absorb a lot of information. I think we're a practitioner or a coach or someone like that
comes into to that. Be valuable is someone to walk alongside you, someone to take all the information
that you've gathered and say, this is what's going to mean something for you. This is what you need to do.
This is let's try this. And honestly, sometimes you can know all the right things to do. I mean, even as a
practitioner, I know this. Like, you can know all the right things and sometimes you just sitting in a fog
like, I'm not sure what to do next. Having a practitioner come alongside and be your ally and say, okay,
like let's help you reach your goals and let's talk about specific action steps for what foods you're going to
include or what supplements you're going to take. Um, and she definitely did get a lot of help from other
people. Um, so I think you can do a lot by just researching it yourself. But having allies is always.
Helpful and can help you get there faster where you want to go.
Speaker 1
[00.28.08]
Yeah. And so like I said, I don't necessarily disagree. Um, I would hire a practitioner myself actually.
And the reason for that is because when you hire a practitioner, you are paying for their training and
expertise and their experience, things that you don't necessarily have. And sure, you could get experience
by doing tons of research yourself. You're probably going to spend a lot of money that you don't need to
spend, and you're going to spend many, many hours, months, years doing research that you don't
necessarily need to do by simply asking somebody who knows?
Speaker 2
[00.28.44]
Yep, yep, yep. And especially if you're dealing with a serious, you know, with illness or you're not
feeling well, it just it means a lot to have someone to to tell you, to guide you in the right direction,
because it is overwhelming. And I think that that's becoming even more the case. Back to what we talked
about at the beginning. With so much research now coming out and more voices joining the the holistic
wellness space, which is great, but it can be hard to cut through the noise. So to have a practitioner who's
who is weeding through all that and is in that, to be able to say, okay, let's go, this direction is very
valuable to
Speaker 1
[00.29.19]
my mind, goes toward intuitive eating. So now, like I said, we would shift back toward the disordered
eating. But my my mind is going toward intuitive eating because I recently worked at a university as a
therapist and in a university setting, there's a lot of talk about intuitive eating because they're trying to
battle eating disorders among the students. And coincidentally, this university has a pretty big nutrition
and dietetics program. And so they're all about the the conventional dietetics principles. And one of those
is the intuitive eating thing. And I can't help but kind of laugh at that because their whole message to
students was, you can eat anything you want. Food is just food. Yeah, and the reason I find that a little bit
funny is because it's like, well, if food is just food and I can eat whatever I want, then what's the point in
hiring a dietitian? Like I said, it's more about you're paying somebody for their expertise and hopefully
the dietitian you're hiring, if that's the route you choose to go, does have the expertise that you need. Butjust because of the letters after a name that somebody has does not automatically guarantee that they're
going to be the right fit for you. And so you do really have to do the research. And so I really like
nutritional therapy practitioners. I'm kind of biased because I am one. But that was after a lot of research
myself as I was looking for nutrition programs. I wanted something with the right perspective.
Speaker 2
[00.30.50]
I wanted to become the practitioner that I'd go see.
Speaker 1
[00.30.53]
Yeah, yeah. And so that's exactly what I did to I wanted to become the practitioner that I wanted to see as
a client because I wanted. A wholesome perspective. And that's what I found with becoming an NP is is
that wholesome perspective that I yearned for? I simply wasn't finding it in a university setting, even
though I considered it. What made you find the Nutritional Therapy Association? And like for me, it took
some digging, honestly. But. But what led you to it?
Speaker 2
[00.31.25]
Well, I was I was blessed to have a friend who was an NP and so she, I didn't have to do a ton of digging.
She sent me the information and she said, you need to check this out because we shared that passion. And
once I began digging into it, I was like, yes, resonates. Yes, resonates. This is what I've been looking for.
Um, and I know, like you've mentioned in previous podcasts, I mean, it is so completely worth it. Um,
just the rigorous ness and the thoroughness and the, uh, commitment to excellence and and the balanced
perspective, the fact that you can in the wellness space, you can get a lot of really opinionated people
about really, you know, different diets and different things. And the fact that they brought it all together
and we were all united in that common goal. That's incredible. So I definitely, definitely love the, the
NTA. So I, I was blessed to have someone pass it on to me, but I pass it on to everyone else. I know. Uh,
one of my favorite podcasts. They interview a lot of NPS. I didn't realize until I was in school at the
Nutritional Therapy Association that they were interviewing all these NPS, and I was like, oh, I guess I'm
in the right place. Yeah. And it's it's so funny how like as they introduce the guests, they introduce them
as nutritional therapy practitioners, but they don't really emphasize the training or anything.
Speaker 1
[00.32.50]
And so I had to find that in hindsight, like just listening to the podcasts. And eventually I was like, oh,
wait a minute, this person is INTp and so is this person and this person. And I was like, okay, I found the
right training. Yep, yep. You
Speaker 2
[00.33.04]
did. Yep. And it's and that's important. I do like to emphasize to just how rigorous the training was
because again, you get MVP is not really a well recognized credential. I hope that that's going to change.
It's not like when you say you're a registered dietitian. People think, oh yeah, wow, okay. But you know,
people say no and you're like, what is that? So really trying to explain to people what it is, is important
because it's not very well recognized. So yeah.
Speaker 1
[00.33.30]Yeah, I agree it's not very well recognized. In fact, like I said before, I went through the training myself, I
didn't know what an NP was. I kept hearing it on that podcast, but it didn't really ring a bell for me until I
actually was in the training. And I knew what NP was. And and I've seen similar things, like with pretty
much any profession that has acronyms that just aren't very well known. So like I'm a licensed
psychotherapist, but if you look at the letters after my name, nobody knows what what they mean, right?
All they care is that I'm a therapist and I can do therapy. Yeah. And so maybe what we need to do is just
stop using the acronyms and call ourselves nutritional therapy Practitioners, so people have a better idea
of exactly what it is that we
Speaker 2
[00.34.19]
do. Yeah, I would
Speaker 1
[00.34.20]
agree. So if you were to work with a client with disordered eating, what would be the main approach that
you take to to help them not kind of slip into that unhealthy mindset toward food?
Speaker 2
[00.34.34]
Right. Um, I think most importantly is making sure that the situation's not beyond scope, because as
much as I wish that there was more holistic perspectives and a more of a holistic healing mindset and
eating disorder recovery, it's of course, very important to realize that if someone's in a really serious
situation, they need to go get medical attention. And there are some very serious situations. I think
ideally, if I were to work with a client, it would be somebody like myself who has a passive disordered
eating and is trying to find a deeper level of healing, um, beyond just maybe the calories in calories out
that are registered dietitian might approach might take um and trying to so so once we establish that that
they're in a stable place um, in terms of not going into crisis, I think I would treat, I mean, do an analysis
like any other patient but your client. Um, but to go back to your point, digestion first. What's going on
with the digestion? How can we begin to heal that? Because that's going to alleviate a lot of mental
stress, and it's going to make you feel better. And anything else we do after that, I mean, that's one of the
core foundations of the nutritional therapy association is the digestion and elimination, um, pillars. So,
uh, make sure that that's working. Well, I think then probably secondary to that would be the endocrine
system. So I know for me personally, thyroid was a big thing. Adrenals are a big thing because in a
passive disordered eating you're putting your body under so much stress constantly and your body's
constantly feeling like it's in starvation or it's and it's out or it's, you know, just and experiencing a lot of
stress. So the adrenals get overworked and the thyroid so intentionally nourishing those and working to
get those back online. And I know especially with a lot of women, it's it's a problem in, in, uh, dieting
and disordered eating to like lose your menstrual cycle and to be completely off balance with hormones.
So I think after digestion elimination, it would be hormones. Um, and then just working from there with
any other symptoms that they might have. But I think those are probably the biggest ones.
Speaker 1
[00.36.53]
Yeah, yeah, I totally agree. And from a therapy perspective. So even before I did the nutrition training, I
kind of perceived that the hyper focus on tracking numbers was just creating more of an issue. And so
like I got some nutrition training before becoming an NP, but I would really push clients to just focus on
the quality of their food and not not really pay attention to the calories, not pay attention to how many
grams of fat or how many grams of protein they're eating, because it's that obsession with the numbers
that creates. Or maybe it doesn't quite create, but at least perpetuates that perfectionistic mentality of
food. And it creates that anxiety around food where it's like, oh, I didn't didn't quite have the numbers
that I wanted to have or that I feel like I should have. So instead, like I did, I mentioned intuitive eatingearlier, which I'm mostly against, but not entirely. And the part that I'm not really um, against is the part
where you're paying attention to your body, in that your body will tell you when you're done eating. Your
body will tell you when you're hungry, and you should learn to pay attention to to those signals, because
that's where you're going to get the most valuable information. It's not from the numbers.
Speaker 2
[00.38.16]
Yeah, I could talk I could do a diatribe on intuitive eating, too. But because I think it's a great principle in
theory, but I think it fell victim to what a lot of great principles do is that they become very popular, and
then they become diluted and they become mis defined, and they become defined in ways they were
never intended to, to be defined. And I think it was part of that intuitive eating that drove me to this
holistic perspective, because, you know, if you read the original book, which is a really good book, it
talks about gentle nutrition. But in the conventional disordered eating world, a lot of it's treated as, um, at
least in my experience, a lot of it. Nobody's really willing to say what that is. And there's kind of this
nutrition agnosticism where everyone's like, oh yeah, nutrition, gentle nutrition, but nobody's willing to
come down and say, like, this is nutrition. This is not because of, you know, not wanting to be so, um,
dogmatic. So I think that being a the intuitive eating piece, like you said, really good for your mental
ability to. To eat well and to be mindful. Like you've talked about before, being mindful with your food
is always a really great idea, but it kind of starts to break down if you're trying to use it as your entire
governing principle for all of your nutrition, I think, because then you won't really go anywhere beyond
that. But the mindfulness piece is for sure very important.
Speaker 1
[00.39.39]
Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, you want to approach everything with wisdom, right? Like you don't just
blow it out of proportion and just go crazy with just one tiny perspective. We and another way of putting
it is to just keep everything in moderation. So, so obviously like if you feel like you feel better eating
more carbs, that doesn't mean just eat carbs all the time, all day, every day. You still need other nutrients.
And we see that in life too, where it's like, you can't just take one approach because you feel better and
blow that out of proportion because you need other quote unquote nutrients of life, right?
Speaker 2
[00.40.18]
Yeah, yeah, I agree. And it's and balance is something that disordered eating really doesn't have. And so
as you begin to recover, there's more of that balance and freedom and just the ability to be okay with a lot
of different situations, a lot of different. Ideas and being comfortable with food that comes in a lot of
different packages and viewing it from that perspective. So yeah.
Speaker 1
[00.40.45]
Yeah. So that's kind of been my approach is I just I really encourage people to stop paying attention so
much to the numbers. There is some value in it. So again, we're not blowing out of proportion. It's more
like like pay attention to how many ounces of water you're drinking, especially if you tend to not drink
enough. But don't obsess over it. For example, I carry around a 40 ounce water bottle and I know that I
need 80oz a day. So it just it makes it really easy for me to do the math. I just know in the back of my
mind I need two water bottles per day, and I'm pretty good. There are ways that you can track the
numbers and simplify it to where you're not having to keep doing math all the time, and make it a hyper
focused part of your life. What tips and tricks have you found to be helpful for? For those things that
might need to be tracked, but maybe there's a better way to do it to where we're not hyper
Speaker 2[00.41.37]
focusing. Something that my, uh, some of the, um, nutritionists and dietitians I was working with in my
recovery process, it was really helpful for me as doing things in ranges or doing things in generalities.
Um, so instead of saying, you know, you need maybe, um. You need to have this many calories or you
need to have this many carbohydrates, say at the meal, you need to have 1 to 2 servings of carbs or um, in
a day. You need to have, you know, three servings of fat and then kind of roughly define what a serving
is. But it kind of takes the numbers, the hard and fast, you know, 31g of this out of it and gives you a
little bit more freedom to think of food as a nutrient in general. Um, so, you know, also known as
tracking macros. And again, people can be obsessive with that too, but thinking of things as ranges as
well to give freedom. Um, so someone's not like, oh, I can't have another serving of carbs because I'm
only supposed to have one car, but this meal, it's like, okay, well, 2 to 3 servings of carbohydrates, you
know, and, um, kind of letting your brain think in terms of, oh, there's flexibility here. So I need to be
intuitive to think some meals I might eat to some meals I might eat three, you know, and um, so that
speaking in generalities and also changing, maybe the metric you're using to measure is helpful.
Speaker 1
[00.43.05]
Yeah, I love that. And something we need to remember is the body is dynamic. So I mentioned how I
shoot for 80oz a day, but sometimes I don't need quite that much or sometimes I need more. And so I
love that idea of just thinking in terms of ranges where it's not black and white, it's just according to what
your body needs from day to day and how you feel too. I mean, I could force myself to drink 80oz a day,
even even on a really cold day when I'm totally sedentary. But quite frankly, if that's the case, if it's a
cold day and I'm sedentary, I'm not sweating. I'm not putting forth any physical exertion. I probably don't
need eight ounces of water, let's be honest, so I can give myself some grace and say, maybe I only need
60oz and that's good enough. And so that's, that's kind of the that's kind of the paradigm shift that we're
looking for when we're moving away from the disordered eating. And more toward a wholesome, healthy
eating is it's more about recognizing when things are good enough rather than black and white, good and
bad.
Speaker 2
[00.44.14]
Yes, I agree, I think that's a hallmark of disordered eating and eating disorders, is just not recognizing the
body's flexibility and going off of hard and fast rules. Trying to fit your body into a mold instead of
understanding what rhythms your body has naturally. So I yeah, I agree with that. That's a huge a huge
step and it can be hard to do. But once you take the step, it's very freeing.
Speaker 1
[00.44.36]
We're coming up on the end of our time. I'm going to just ask you one question that I like to ask people at
the end, and that is if you could change one thing about the way people approach health and wellness,
what would it be?
Speaker 2
[00.44.47]
Yeah, I think I'm going to go kind of philosophical on you with this, because I think this is going to be
very broad spectrum. But I think something I see is just. I wish that it was. It was more popular to think
about your health and wellness as a patient journey. I think because of so many years following a medical
model, it's a very I have this problem. Do this one thing like a medication or a therapy or something like
that and fix it. Um, and just running into that with different clients to realize that this is a journey,
especially depending on where you're coming from. And, um, sometimes it takes a little experimentation,
especially if you're getting into the real food or the whole food thing for the first time. Take someexperimentation and it takes a little bit of time. Um, and it just takes patience, but it's worth it. And the
advantage of taking a more patient approach is you're going to have more long term results. And getting
people to value the long term results over an immediate fix is something that I think is a huge seismic
shift. And but once you once you get there, Then it just changes everything and you realize that you can
live healthier, longer and might take a little more, more work, but it's worth it. So I think that's what I
would say
Speaker 1
[00.46.10]
I love it, it's it's very much an NP perspective where it's like you're looking at the long term results and
yeah, you'll have small wins as you go.
Speaker 2
[00.46.17]
Oh for sure. But
Speaker 1
[00.46.19]
that's not really what our goal is though is to have the immediate wins. Right. And we are kind of used to
that in conventional medicine where it's like, oh doctor, I have this ailment. They run some tests and give
you a prescription and send you on your way for the rest of your life, but you keep taking that medication
for the rest of your life. The alternative is to have more of a holistic perspective where it's like, I'm going
to feel just slightly better. Maybe it's 1% better every day or every week, but it's still better and it's going
to be so much more sustainable and so much more profound after years of having this healthy lifestyle.
So love it. One last thing. How can people find you if they are looking for
Speaker 2
[00.47.01]
you? Yes. Um, if you want to, um, you can always email me. Its enduring wellness at Outlook.com and I
that would be the best place to find me to send an email there. I am currently developing like a website,
but that is not quite ready yet. But it is. Enduring wellness at Outlook.com would be the best place to
contact me for sure.
Speaker 1
[00.47.26]
Okay, awesome. Thanks, Abigail.
Speaker 2
[00.47.28]
Thanks. Thanks for talking. It was good. It's good chat. Real food. Mental health is intended for
informational and entertainment purposes only. The information presented on this podcast is not intended
to replace any medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. While I am a health care provider, I am not your
provider. Always seek the advice of an appropriate health care practitioner with any personal questions
you may have regarding a medical condition. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay in
seeking it because of something you have heard on this podcast. Reliance on information provided by
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